Fabian Geyrhalter:
Welcome to the show, Lisa.

Lisa Bella Donna:
Thank you for having me, Fabian. I appreciate the inclusion.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
It's so wonderful to have you. The first question, how does it feel being the guest on the show? Right after Fred Schneider, I spotted a B-52's 8-track in one of your studio tour videos, which I checked out last night and I went down the rabbit hole for an hour. I walked through your studio. Amazing. How does it feel? B-52’s, big fan?

Lisa Bella Donna:
Oh, absolutely. Big fan, of course. Yeah, they're innovators and they made dance music that was fun and free and punk music that was fun and free. I love their music all through their era. I have pretty much everything they ever released on LPs.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Oh, no way. Look at you pivoting from 8-track immediately into vinyl. I like this already.

Lisa Bella Donna:
I do have their first two albums on eight track though. Yeah, for sure.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Amazing. Amazing. So for those who don't know Lisa well, you're a composer, a performer whose long form modular performances have made you one of the most respected figures in the analog synth world. I would say your relationship with ‘Moge’ or ‘Moog,’ as many call the iconic brand, runs deep as you're one of a very small number of artists that's trusted by Moog music to represent its complex and historically significant instruments. How did your love for the world of synthesizers begin? And when?

Lisa Bella Donna:
Pretty early on, I had a stepfather who had a tremendous record collection and he, I'm trying to think, I was probably seven or eight somewhere in there, and he turned me on to Wendy Carlos's Switched on Bach and Sonic Seasonings in the same day. So both heavy hitters in completely different directions. And you know what really fascinated me, other than just the tremendous musicality and technicality of it, especially on Sonic Seasonings, I was like, how did she do this? How did she make it feel like a field recording, specifically the piece Summer? It is not a field recording that's a Moog synthesizer double tracked over and over. It's incredible, and it's one of those pieces that just really takes you into the epicenter of its space. You feel like you're part of what's going on, and that really opened my eyes that music is so much more than just great songs or great playing great stories and images. As much as it is the sound stage, it lives and breathes in. And that's where I really discovered my passion for synthesis, even though it was years later before I had an opportunity to get one underneath my own hands.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Well, and let's talk about this because when you got one under your hands, the story is meaning. You said that before in an interview, but maybe I'm getting it wrong, but the story is that you had to sell your car to get that first synthesizer right? Or was that another one later on, but it was like a big deal for you?

Lisa Bella Donna:
That was early on. I mean, yeah, probably the third synthesizer I ever purchased, and it was just the fact that it was a bigger system and expensive at the time. I grew up very poor and was working in a studio at 16 and just saving every penny that I could to start doing what I'm doing now. So it's been a tremendous journey, but I continue to arrive at these instruments, humbled and inspired, learn more, and to just create and to offer listeners a place that they can go to and just hopefully forget that it's me making the music and they just get into their own sort of personal cinema of whatever's going on in their heart and in their mind. That's what my intention with music is.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
I love the way that you put this, and I think that that's what great art is all about, right? That you can lose yourself and you're not thinking about how it was created, but it's the emotion that you feel at that moment, which hopefully changes every time you listen to it. It's absolutely magical. Do you remember your first record, what it was that you bought?

Lisa Bella Donna:
Yes, I do. Not the first one that was ever gifted to me, but the first record that I ever bought with my own money, and I still have it, it's survived floods and cats and all sorts of stuff, but there was a record store where I grew up and it was called Current Records, and it was just an amazing place, packed floor to ceiling with records and always smelled good in there. It smelled like incense and pot and good coffee, and it was just a great place. And I remember saving up as much money as I could doing yard work and weeding gardens and cleaning and painting, whatever I could do to make some money. I bought this German import called Black Sabbath Star Gold, and it was essentially just a compilation of their first three or four albums, and I was so tickled to bring that home and put it on, turn it up, and it was a very rewarding process back then to, because it was hard to find albums and to get albums, and it wasn't like it is today at all. You had to really dream about having something like that.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
I think there was something about that time where when you finally purchased it, you studied it. You didn't just put it on, you studied it, right? You read the line of notes, you got into the graphics, you really got into it back then. I recall knowing everyone who produced an album today, it's like, I don't know, it became a different world unless you really take the time, which I know people like you and I and everyone listening, they do take that time, but it was a big deal to bring an album home and to really immerse yourself in it. So Black Sabbath, Ozzie Osbourne, a huge, huge influence for you. I know that listening to some past interviews of yours, obviously Rest in Peace, that was a big hit last year when he left. When our listeners get into your music and they get lost in your soundscapes, it's pretty far removed from the initial thought that you have about Black Sabbath. So how did you

Lisa Bella Donna:
Yes.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Yeah. How does that connect?

Lisa Bella Donna:
Well, it all connects. My statement is often many musics for many moods, and just because those were my roots, and I still listen to Black Sabbath on a pretty regular basis, there are so many other musics that all have just sort of become part of my DNA, become part of what makes me passionate about music, and part of the goal is to make your own music at a certain point and be yourself in that and hold yourself accountable for that. So even though my music is derivative of certain other artists, I get compared to often mindful my influences run far and wide. What makes me want to get up and go create when I'm listening to other artists is very, very different than what most people would imagine.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
I love that. And that's where inspiration comes from, right? It's not one sided, otherwise it would turn Blend very quickly. Who do you own the most records of in your collection? Is the one artist that you have most of,

Lisa Bella Donna:
I mean, I'm a completist for the most part, so I have most of who I love, most of their discographies. I mean maybe Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Alice Coltrane, Shastakovich, Chick Corea, George Crumb, John Adams, I mean, Alan Holdsworth, Sandy Denny for sure. I have multiple copies of Sandy Denny's albums. She's one of my favorites. I mean, she's my female Ozzy. She is very dear to me.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Is there a specific record that you cherish the most, the one record that you would grab on your way out if the house falls apart and you already grabbed everything else, like every Moog and your daughter and the cats or whatever's around?

Lisa Bella Donna:
Well, my favorite album of all time is the soundtrack Night of The Living Dead, which is a collection of different composers. So yeah, that album had a tremendous impact on me. It really changed my life, and I have a really nice original copy of that. And yeah, that one, or I have an original signed by the director and the soundtrack is called Des Mortis of the Dead, and it's a Belgian film, and I'm very fortunate to have this copy that I'm holding in my hand. It is a very haunting album with a mix of different artists, but all curated and as well as the main theme is performed by Alan Pierre and it a tremendously haunting album. It is a very hard film to watch too. It's more of a documentary or a docudrama than it is a fiction film.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
This is something that you and I chatted about a little bit outside of the recording in the beginning where the idea of sharing music and how special that is, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of people listening to the show, they might not have heard of the movie or the soundtrack or a lot of the artists that you mentioned right now. And I think that sensation of getting into something that has been around for 30, 50, a hundred years and you hear it for the first time, I mean, to me that is such a gift. So I'm so excited about being able to dive into a lot of that, and I'm going to make sure to create a playlist for everyone to listen to as well. Is that the rarest record that you have, or is the one that's the rarest that you feel like is most probably a collector's dream?

Lisa Bella Donna:
That's a pretty rare record. I have another record that I can't remember right now, but it's signed by the vocalist. I'll have to remember it. But yeah, this is probably one of the rarest records I have. Another one that's a favorite and very rare is Paul Leal dramaturgy, Cosma Gani from 1972. And a lot of the music on that album went on to be in The Dawn of the Dead 1978 George Romero film. And that entire album is just to listen to it in its entirety. Oh, that is one of my most, talking about what makes me want to be a composer and to strive for these altered states of harmony and time. And that is one of those records that very hard album to find, but such a tremendous host of compositions on it. Nothing else like Paul Lemo.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Now you have a lot more people looking for that record right after this airs.

Lisa Bella Donna:
There's one on eBay right now.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Oh, you're watching it.

Lisa Bella Donna:
If it wasn't, yeah, I have it. I have it, but if it wasn't for the tariffs, I would buy it just to have a backup.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
I know it's a little rough right now, buying internationally. Well, talking about rare records, I saw the limited runs you did with Waxmedge Records, I believe you say Waxmedge Records, like magic Wax Magic, yeah. Out of the cult Groove Pressing plant. How was that experience for you? They looked so stunning.

Lisa Bella Donna:
Well, I didn't really get to see any of those pressings in person, but I have roughly a hundred of those pressings right now that I'm, and I have a couple of super limited, I have 25 Clear, crystal Clear and 25 black of that album. So once I get a new store and website up this year, which I'm working on right now, I'm going to make all those available. So the hand poured ones I have aren't quite as just as vibrant, but they look really cool. They're just a different kind of hand pour. They look a little more, I don't know, that whole style kind of reminds me of tapestries and gravity bongs and things like that. But they looked great, and more importantly, they did a tremendous job of making that album translate from the masters that I had cut. I had well-made music in Virginia do a cut prior to them doing the Master Cut because they're long sides. And so the guys at Well-Made Music are some of the best, if not the best cutters in this country, and they really take special care of my albums because they're far reaching both conceptually and frequency wise, what you can actually get on the grooves of an album. Really happy with how that one turned out. So very grateful.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Well, I'm excited that we all might be able to get our hands on those that they're still around that you just need to get the store up and running. That's amazing. That's cool. I'll make sure to be back and grab one of those. Looked absolutely stunning. So very,

Lisa Bella Donna:
Yeah, I have a hundred left of that, and that'll be the end of that pressing, so

Fabian Geyrhalter:
And how much was the total pressing? How many did you press?

Lisa Bella Donna:
300.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Yeah, so super, super small run.

Lisa Bella Donna:
Yeah, I like that. I think that that's more of what I'm interested in is because A, I'm not as, that's about what I'm able to move. I ask a lot of my listeners not making dance music. I mean, some of my music could be under that category, but the albums that I'm really passionate about are, they're Deep Listening records. They're albums that I'm hopeful that listeners will put it on the turntable and either sit down between the speakers and take the journey with me, or they'll just at least turn it up and just do everyday things around their home as this celestial soundscape comes in and sort of cleanses the area. That's my hope.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
I write a lot, and when I write, that's the type of music that I like to listen to, because on the one hand, it can be in the background, but on the other hand, you can get lost in it and it can spur new thoughts. So no, there's a time and a place and your music does that. I think it really captures your imagination and it keeps pushing you forwards if you want it to, or it just kind of like it's there, like you said, it's in the background. Wonderful, wonderful stuff. Top five albums, no particular order. Let's go, Lisa.

Lisa Bella Donna:
Okay. Other than the ones I mentioned?

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Yeah.

Lisa Bella Donna:
One would be organ Music Prelude and Fugues eight Corral Preludes by Walter Kraft on the Organ. That album had a tremendous impact on me growing up, and it is a electrifying album to listen to. It is, no one else did his music as good as Walter Kraft, as far as I'm concerned. That's definitely one. Let's see here, another one that's ultra rare that I love. It's got a really cool cover too. It's entitled Music From Cleveland, and it's the Cleveland Composer's Guild. And there's a piece on here by Julius Rosen, string Quartet number six, Opus 33 from 19 63, one of my favorite pieces of music ever. It is just so modern and just so I don't know, it just suspends you in it. It's a beautiful piece of music and it's performed by the Severance String Quartet. But the entire album, Frederick Rudolph and John White all have compositions on this compilation incredible album and super cool bright pink and blue cover.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
The way that you describe it is not the album cover that I would've imagined, so that's wild.

Lisa Bella Donna:
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so that's two. Let's see here. God, this is hard.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
I know. This is super hard. It's super hard.

Lisa Bella Donna:
Yeah, lemme go over here. I'm down in my listening room. Okay. Oh,

Fabian Geyrhalter:
You're actually going through the records. I love it. You're scanning your collection. This is great.

Lisa Bella Donna:
Well, I mean, this has probably been, maybe this has been in interviews before, but this is without a doubt one of my absolute all time favorite records, and that's Slayers Hell Awaits from 1985, And there's just something very special about this record to me. A, I heard this when it first came out, and there was nothing like it there, had nothing like it before. And even though it created a genre, there's been nothing like it since that captured this. I mean, the way it sounds, I mean, the musical themes, the arrangements, the unparalleled aggression, the sound, I mean, it sounds like it was recorded in a haunted crypt. It was really an amazing thing to experience at that time, and I still feel that way when I listen to it. And I love the overtly satanic lyrics. I mean, they were ruthless, and this is in 1985. This was really, this scared a lot of people. It scared a lot of people, and including my mother was like, what is this? This is too much.
And people can focus on just the dark themes about it. But what I would like to do is offer an observation, an impression of this is art, and this is freedom and art, and this is escapism through art where every time that you put on any record that means something to you, it is an incredible opportunity to visit and revisit a timeless space. And I think that's something really special. And I think this album has that, regardless of the themes and all that, it is fantasy, but it is a tremendous effort by a couple of roughneck guys out of Los Angeles. I think it's a really special album.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
I love the way that you talk about an album where most people know at least about the album or know at least a couple of songs on the album or the entire album, but the way that you would like people to listen to it in a different way and explore it beyond the surface level of what people think about it, I think is so exciting. Yeah, this is really, and when you said Leo might be on other lists, the great thing is about these top five lists. I mean, just listen to your first two albums in comparison to Slayer. No one will ever have the same top five albums as you do or anyone else that has an interesting taste in music, and I think this is absolutely fascinating. I love it. Okay. I gave you some time here to think about number four and five. You see what I'm doing? I'm helping.

Lisa Bella Donna:
No, I appreciate it. One for certain would be Shostakovich string quartets by the Fitzwilliams String Quartet. Again, these are pieces that beyond just the style of classical music or chamber music, the way that Shostakovich would sort of create an environment in a piece as it would begin, and then he would slowly but surely open up what this idea is in an almost fluorescent way, harmonically, and he would just start stretching the limits of Western harmony in a way that would pull you into this wider dimension of his music. And the recordings on those albums, these were all recorded in the 1970s. They're just very well documented, and you're in the room with these gentlemen playing these incredible pieces, very unique. They're too cohesive to just call them avant-garde because they do shift and turn with beautiful s and themes, and it's just, I urge anybody to sit down and make a weekend of just digging into those tremendous set of albums.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Amazing. Yeah, I for sure will. First you got to find the album, but that's one thing at a time.

Lisa Bella Donna:
I mean, it is a DECCA release, so I mean, DECCA released them and

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Oh, yeah.

Lisa Bella Donna:
So it shouldn't be too difficult to find.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Cool. Good, good, good. Well, if I may torture you, there's one left in the top five albums, charts of all time of Lisa Bella Donna

Lisa Bella Donna:
I'm struggling as we speak,

Fabian Geyrhalter:
And you're only struggling because of the many choices, not struggling because you don't have enough choices. And you already mentioned, to be fair, right, you already mentioned a couple of those most important albums to you in the beginning of today's interview.

Lisa Bella Donna:
I did.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Well, why don't we let it slide then, unless you come up with one right now.

Lisa Bella Donna:
I would say John Adams Chairman Dances, I mean, that was one of those albums in college was turned onto and just had not ever heard music created quite like that, especially classical music. There is just a linear experience when you listen to a piece by John Adams and just beautiful, beautiful arrangements, very sonically focused. Not only is he using the orchestra as a device to create harmonic modulation, but he also, it almost feels electronic at times, especially the piece on that album called Common Tones and Simple Time. It's over 20 minutes and just the way it unfolds. It's a beautiful skyscape, really, really well thought out, well felt classical music.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Are there any recent releases in the last couple of years that you're really excited about? Do you keep up with current stuff that you just get into in similar fashions or?

Lisa Bella Donna:
Absolutely. I've really gotten into this modern jazz. I wouldn't just call her a jazz musician, but she is jazz oriented, and that's Lucy Khanyan, and she is Armenian, and I believe lives in the States part-time works over in Armenia quite a bit. Her pieces are great, and she likes to call what she does as experimental folk and her arrangements are very honest and very sort of out of step with just what Jazz does. So I really love her music. I love the stuff my daughter turns me onto. I'm a big fan of the Army, the Navy, their albums are fantastic. I love the recent Dying Wish album. What is it called? Flesh, what is it called? Oh, it's incredible. And it sounds so good, the mix. So good. Yeah. Dying Wish Flesh Stays Together. Excellent record. Let's see, who else is in my modern playlist? Yes. Again, it's just hard to peg me onto what people expect from my listening, but I just love all sorts of kinds of music.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
I love the way that it sounds like you listen to music and you can already imagine it being done in an electronic style or being done in a classical style, or you have this ability because you studied music for so long in so many intricate manners that you hear things others might never pick up without your guidance. And I think the last 30 minutes or so, hearing you talk about specific pieces and really guiding us through these pieces and us all being able to now pick that up and listen to it and try to hear what you hear so special, super exciting.

Lisa Bella Donna:
Thank you. Another album I love is this younger songwriter, vocalist instrumentalist named Jessica Coone, and her artist name is Justice Cow, and she has this album entitled, My Dad Died. And it is a tremendous journey in songwriting. I mean, it's a masterclass of excellent songwriting, and I urge everybody to go sit down and listen to it. Don't just listen to one track and make your decision. Listen to how she unfolds. Every track and the lyrics are just so naked and personal and the musical orchestrations that she, I mean, it's like it's unlimited. It's beautiful to watch an artist that is, they have completely developed their own safe space to build their garden of songwriting or composition. That album's a great example of that. Jessica Coone, Justice Cow, My Dad Died. Beautiful, beautiful album.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Besides your daughter who might have a different taste and hooks you up with new music, where do you find artists like this? How does new music come to you these days?

Lisa Bella Donna:
Well, a lot of it comes from my daughter. My daughter has a very eclectic taste,

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Not surprised,

Lisa Bella Donna:
And I don't impose, unless she asks for a recommendation, I don't impose my tastes on her. I love that she comes to me and wants to share what she's very passionate about with music and film and video games and art and books. I mean, she's already deep as a young teenager. She's got a really extensive knowledge of a lot of different vast kinds of art and music and film. I don't think it's great. People send me their music a lot, too. A lot of people who admire my music send me their music, and I try to get to many, as many of them as I can. But just things I find on Instagram sometimes really knocks me out. Just things that just sometimes I'll know certain people that know certain groups or artists. And the next thing I know I met John Bohannon is a guitarist and pedal steel player whose albums are tremendous, tremendous pieces of beauty. All of his albums are just all different, all beautiful. And he's someone that I just met in the music industry through other musicians, through shows. So yeah, I mean, I love a lot of modern music. I know a lot of people think that I'm just stuck in the seventies and yeah, absolutely. I love so much music from the seventies and the sixties, but from all the eras. But yeah, my musical taste is pretty wide.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Yes, that we learned, that we learned. Super, super exciting. You just talked about shows. You just performed at the NAMM Show down the street from me here in Anaheim, and then in December you released Mysteries of Time and Space, which is available on Bandcamp. How many records have you released? How many full albums have you released at this point?

Lisa Bella Donna:
Oh, I don't know, 50 to 60, somewhere between, I mean, solo albums probably 56, 57. With other groups, I've been in some rock and metal groups and performed on a lot of other people's records. I couldn't tell you how many, maybe another 50 all combined. I would have to really, I don't really spend a lot of time on what I've done. I'm more interested in where my musical heart and mind or living in the moment. Granted, I don't discard the things that I've done in the past. There's some things I'm proud of for sure. But artists are generally living in the moment, and that's how we do our best stuff. If we look too far back on our own work for too long, it can really make us have doubts about what we're capable of. And I just want to continue to grow and to be a better composer, a better technician, a better player, just a better conduit to the listener to me, no matter what I do, even though I know my music probably seems extremely self-indulgent and all that, and I'll take whatever blame I got to take. But the truth of it is my albums and my music is very, it's very crafted for a listener. I really want to invite a listener into how I feel about music, my gratitude of life. I mean, that's what music is. Music is a gratitude about life. Regardless of how beautiful and bright it is or how dark and grimy it is, it's still the resonance of freedom of one's gratitude towards life. And that's music to me every day. I'm a music listener first.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
I love that. I absolutely love that. Where are you going next? What are you currently working on?

Lisa Bella Donna:
Well, I'm just about to finish up a double album that'll be called Beyond the Astral Gates, and it is sort of a continuum of the last two records that I've done. I am really excited about it. It's been a and very challenging process when I've had time to work on it. I sort of have these seasons of getting to compose music, and this one has been really rewarding for me. This particular album, and I have that one will probably get put out on Double lp. It's a double album. So I have this tremendous album cover, this photograph that I'm so excited to have on an album and other photographs. So it'll be really nice, really nice gatefold.
I'm very excited about it. So hopefully by winter of this year that'll be finished at the very latest. Could be sooner. But in the meantime, I am working on a independent film score by a writer director named Salix Fina, and she is a really inspiring young creative, and I'm so excited to work on her film. Don't want to disclose the name right now. I don't have her consent understood. But it's a very inspiring short film, so I'm excited to be a part of that. And next month I'm going over to the Netherlands to headline The Electronic Day Festival curated by Ron Boots. That's a very amazing community over there. So super grateful and proud to be invited there to share my music. And there is one of my favorite modern electronic musicians lives there, so I'll have to really deal with my own nervousness.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Who is that?

Lisa Bella Donna:
It's a gentleman named Martin Peters,
And he is a beautiful electronic musician. His stuff is just so natural, and he goes into these amazing long form, very sequential. He's just one of those rare artists that he just doesn't do anything wrong. There's never anything that happens in his music that's anything but beautiful. I think he's a tremendous artist, and so a little nervous to perform in front of him, but he's so nice and he's offered to loan me equipment, so hopefully, if anything, I'll get to have a cup of coffee or something with him and get to meet him in person will be a real privilege and pleasure for sure.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
It sounds like it is going to be amazing. And the double album that's going to be fantastic too. Sounds like a big personal achievement to release a double album with the photographs and the third in the series. And it seems like it's been a good time for you creating this piece of art. I am so grateful for you, having spent well over 40 minutes with us on this mid-February day. Thank you so much for giving us a little peek behind the curtain of your collection and giving us not hours, but days worth of listening that we will have to do now. It's like homework. I should check in with you. Oh,

Lisa Bella Donna:
There's so much more. There's so many great records in here, and CDs and cassettes and eight tracks. I just feel so inspired every time I come in here and just get to, I don't have my records organized in any alphabetical. They're sort of just organized by vibe, if that makes any sense. There's a lot of just random shelves of them, and I think that it's amazing to come through and there's so many different styles of music and eras and observations, and it sort of, before I get done going through the cabinets and I sit down and I have a playlist that I'm ready to sit down and I'm a ritualistic listener. I love to turn on the stereo. And my passion these days is I have become obsessed with DSD recording, direct state digital. So in my studio and in my home stereo, I have a DSD recorder. So every time that I play a full album, I record it directly to DSD, which is very high resolution. So you hear the impression of a vinyl in a way that's unbelievable. It sounds incredible. And I have a vintage pioneer 1080 sx, 1080 receiver preamp, completely refurbished a techniques turntable with a Mofi master track cartridge. It feels and sounds good to me. And I love recording and archiving to the DSD recorder because one flash drive can at the highest resolution, resolution can record up to 50 hours.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Unbelievable. To be a fly on the wall, even though the acoustics might not be so good when you fly on the wall, but yes, I do. One can imagine that it sounds it's still pretty good. Absolutely amazing. Yeah, still pretty good. Still pretty good. Just a few, right?

Lisa Bella Donna:
Yeah, it's all right.

Fabian Geyrhalter:
Yeah. Lisa, thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much. And we are excited to see what you're up to throughout the year to listen to the new album that's going to come out later in the year. And good luck over in the Netherlands. I know you don't need it. It's going to be a knockout and it's going to be a wonderful experience for you. And yeah, thank you. Thank you for diving deep with us today.

Lisa Bella Donna:
Thank you again for the inclusion and wishing you a wonderful rest of your year. Fabian.